Working Across Cultural Identities - with Gradiola Kapaj

Working across cultural identities - with Gradiola Kapaj

Sarah: Hello and welcome to this episode of Athrú Communications Podcast, where we're exploring how you can transform the way you communicate across cultures and lines of difference. I'm your host, Sarah Black, the founder of Athrú Communications, and I'm joined today by Gradiola Kapaj, an experienced intercultural trainer and diversity and inclusion consultant.

She brings her skills in both of these areas to support multicultural, multinational teams and organizations, ensuring their strategies and solutions are globally resonant. Gradiola has lived and worked in Austria, Italy, France and Albania. She speaks six languages, with Albanian as her mother tongue, English working proficiency, and conversation level in Italian, French, Spanish, and German.

She's been a guest lecturer at the University of Leibniz, did I say that right? Hanover in Germany, as well as in Austria, and she's currently a lecturer in intercultural communication and DEI in Vienna in Austria. Welcome, Gradiola.

Gradiola: Thank you, Sarah. It's a pleasure to be here.

Sarah: Well, thank you for joining me. So many things I want to talk to you about. But, for people who don't understand what an intercultural trainer is, I wonder if you could just briefly explain what that part of your work looks like.

Gradiola: I'll try to explain this, Sarah, as I try to explain it to my friends, which are not in the field. That's exactly who's listening. We, I guess, a lot of us have had the chance to travel for work from one country to another, and we have noticed that the way people act. And the way people speak, uh, the things they do, the values they have, they tend to be different. We know this within our own countries, when you move from one area to another, from one region to another, but especially in different countries, and the farther away you go, the more you notice these differences.

And so, this is how the birth of, like, cross culture management, or intercultural communication, you have it in different names, but that's the basic idea, is, let's try to understand all of this messiness of the different ways people behave in different countries and bring a structure to it and then prepare people when they go to live abroad, study abroad or work abroad.

So it's basically a field that helps people just learn different values and different ways people are behaving across different countries.

Sarah: Fabulous. Thank you. That was a great and very clear explanation of what you do. I know that a big part of your work is supporting multinational teams. Sometimes global, but always multinational. What are some of the things that come up as positives and negatives when we're working across regional and national differences in culture?

Gradiola: I think, again, when we're talking about international groups, it's this idea where we all come with a clean slate. We all know that we have differences, and we don't know everything about one another. And so, there is this idea of I like to learn about you and you have to learn about me and we're going to make mistakes. And that is, that's okay. Basically, it's this process of We know it's going to be messy, but we're going to learn together how to go with that. That looks a bit different. We have to be very conscious of teams, you know, when we put the power dynamic in it.

So let's just say we have a team. that is international but is working in the UK in London. And then the management is, it's from the UK. Then it's not going to be the same thing because then the power is like the people who are leading are bringing that British culture. And so that's going to be the tone of how things are supposed to go. And so people with one another when they're in the same level. So, if we're colleagues and I am from Denmark and you're from Japan. We're still going to have the same dynamics of, okay, we're going to be different. We're going to learn how to do this together, but our working styles will have to fit within like the power majority here, which is the British.

If we would be in a multinational, you know, team that there is not such dynamic, then the thing goes more plain. So, it's always the idea of who is the most powerful and who we're supposed to follow that, that conversation.

Sarah: And do you see that? with kind of wherever head office is kind of tends to influence the dominant, as you said, the dominant culture of the head offices, American or Venezuelan or, you know, Albanian, that might sort of set the tone sometimes for how people are expected to behave.

Gradiola: That's a very interesting question, Sarah. And the reality is it depends on the company. Uh, because more and more with the globalized world and with the generation changing, there is more awareness and people are a lot, are becoming a lot more international right now.

And so, the millennials, for example, the way they're managing it's different. And a lot of multinational companies are having this conversation. I'm pretty sure you, you help some of the companies figure this question out of, are we on. multinational organization, a U. S., for example, organization that is international, or are we a global company?

Yeah, because that makes a difference when, and there is companies, for example, like, you know, very famous, uh, patient, uh, brands out there that they say, Hey, what we're selling is actually the French design or the Italian design. And so, we have to behave like the Italian company that is international because this is what we're selling.

And it has a benefit for us to be a Italian company, which is international, right? But there are some companies who are making that they're very conscious decision of, we have to be a global company. So, we're everywhere. And yes, the genesis of this company may have been, for example, in the UK or in Sweden, but we have to feed into the local realities.

And so, we're going to be a global company. That means we have to translate whatever we're doing into the realities of the countries where we're operating. So, the question, it depends, but it's, it goes, it boils down to that question of, is it an. You know, a headquartered but international company or is it a global company?

Sarah: So, it's quite interesting mindset shift. I think sometimes there can be issues. This might be your experience. I'd be interested to see what you think when people perhaps don't understand those intercultural tensions. So, they don't understand that. somebody from Ireland, let's just pick that, um, might hold certain values versus somebody from Japan and so they don't necessarily see those tensions in their teams until maybe there is a point of friction. Is that something that you also see happening?

Gradiola: Yes, yes, yes. Again, we talk in this line of work of also meeting people where they are. And if we start with just two, a dynamic of two people, and we can expand that to teams, but between two people, it will depend also what is their level of exposure internationally. Because, the less you have had the opportunity to travel abroad or work abroad or study abroad, the less you are aware of these differences. And so, you start in the beginning with this idea of, we are all humans, we have the same desires in the, in our core, so as long as we are respectful and polite, everything should go fine.

Um, and so that's, that's some honour in that and that's some truth in that. But it is when you, once you go and explore, basically, it's when you have those clashes. And if you have two people who are, for the lack of a better word, equally ignorant, then most probably you're going to have a lot more friction in the beginning, you have one which is, you know, in the beginning of the journey and somebody who's a lot more experienced then it's going to be a different dynamic because I believe the person who has had some experience before will be more tolerant, will be more trying to, uh, to explain and to help his peer or her peer to, to adapt or to learn more or, you know, then it, it's, it's just, starting the journey and learning. And we, you can, we all can read as many books as we want, but there's nothing that compares to the experience of putting your feet in the water and going out there and exploring and learning.

Sarah: Yeah, and building relationships with people.

Gradiola: Exactly.

Sarah: And getting to know them, which, um, I think one of the things that I was listening to you, I was thinking about how important it is to be curious about the people that we work with and to get to know them, because sometimes you don't, and we've talked about this in the past, even something as simple as understanding when people take their holidays and what holidays are important to them, um, is, can be really interesting for conversations because you, unless you ask, you don't know what you don't know, as a mutual friend of ours likes to say.

Um, But I think even something as simple as that, and I was going to ask you about some of the practical things. If, if someone listening to this is, is working with a multinational team or a global team, some of the practical things for helping those teams run a little bit more smoothly that you've seen, whether that's around holidays or time of day or any of those things would be useful to hear.

Gradiola: Um, and I think there is two big categories that we need to, to see. One is kind of like the day-to-day practicalities. Uh, and this is, even in a normal team, this is a thing of, that set the tone of what is the common practice we want to do. It's just that in a global team, it's, let's set the tone, but be mindful that this is comfortable with everyone and by comfortable, I mean, somebody doesn't have to wake up at one in the morning, right?

Um, Yeah and so it's just like cleaning, uh, duties of, of, um, just operating, uh, with teams. And then there is a second layer, which is that layer of values basically of let us understand. Um, and so if we, if we just focus a little bit on the first level, it's again, it's not rocket science. We don't have to overthink it.

It's just. Just trying to be mindful of those practices. How, how do we set meetings? When do we set them? Uh, when are our people located around the world? And so how do we make it in a time that it's comfortable for everyone? How can we book important days for people in the calendars? And so, we know that in different countries around the world, there's different holidays that are important for people.

And not all of the national holidays would be important for, for everyone, like in Albania, for example, we celebrate and we have public holidays for all three big religions that we have there, which I think every country should, you know, apply, but okay, that's a different conversation. Uh, but that doesn't mean that I actually really go and celebrate all the Muslim and the Orthodox and the Catholic holidays.

And then it's going to be very messy and the calendar is going to be completely blocked and we will not have time to work. But it's having this, okay, what are your important days that we have to block? And we can all have visibility on the calendar and then be mindful of when we go and have this meeting.

Uh, especially if we're working in remote time, be mindful of allowing some time at the beginning for people to catch up, because in an office, we have this luxury of just whoever feels comfortable with it, because it depends on personalities as well, to just say hi. While we're at the desk or in the morning or when we go grab the coffee in the virtual world.

We don't have that opportunity. It's only when we have the meetings. So if you schedule a meeting only for 15 minutes, you are not going to have the time to do that. So be mindful of allowing some space to talk about that. Be mindful of having people, giving the space for people to speak because you may have a lot of things to say, but then you have only five minutes of chitchat in this meeting.

And so, give everybody the chance to say something so we know what's happening with them. Um, it's this thing of being intentional a little bit extra more than you would be in a normal setting.

Sarah: Yeah. It's good advice. for remote teams. I think that I talked to a lot of people recently about needing to create space for connection, because you don't have it otherwise.

And sometimes we're so scheduled. And I think also I've seen this, I think you probably have as well, that some organizations can get so task focused that they drop the kind of relationship, but sometimes gets a little minimized. And then that's compounded if the kind of cultural, regional cultural value is around, like, we're very, we're very much doers and want to do things as opposed to being and just, you know, hanging out with people. Which is, I suppose, why we're both, um, Cultural Intelligence Certified Facilitators, because we would like to bridge those gaps for people.

Gradiola: Exactly, exactly.

Sarah: I'm curious as well about We talked about this a little bit before we came on to record and you asked me a great question which is when I talk about regional and national cultures, what do I mean? And so I'm going to ask you what your answer is to everybody, what you're at, what we talked about, which was, that's messy.

Gradiola: Um, that is really messy. I mean, the, when I was talking about the genesis of the cross culture management or in interculture field, the idea was to go and study one country. And then there is, there's, there's different frameworks of, uh, and we can talk about later.

Um, different frameworks of like categories that we can think of when we think about how people behave and what their core values when we go from one country to another. Uh, but then the reality is that when they just say, when you work in a big region, like in EMEA, for example, or in the Middle East or, uh, in the Balkans where I'm from.

Yes. Um, and then you're just having operations in all of these countries and you want to just simplify your, your, like the brain wants to be as, as, as little information as possible, basically to operate because this is an. Extra layer of information that you have on top of the work that you itself that you have to do.

Right. And so, it's just like, give me that snapshot about how am I supposed to operate in this regions. Um, but there is a different way we can think about regions as well as within the countries themselves. And you're from Ireland, you know, very well that, you know, even. Yeah. technically different countries. It's the same nation of

Sarah: Oh, we're very messy.

Gradiola: And, and the Republican of Ireland, and then, you know, the, the different regions within Ireland as well. And it's like, you cannot go to Ireland and talk about that without mentioning the regions and the story behind it and, and how is the complexity of the people's relationship.

You're going to miss a very important point into that. And it's the same with Albania. We're such a tiny country. But, you know, the regional differences are huge and, and it is important to take that in consideration. So, it's this idea of when we talk about regions, we zoom out of, you know, summary of cluster of like, of countries with similarities.

And then we zoom really in into seeing, okay, where exactly are we operating? What are the nuances? What do we need to learn to be able to do this as effectively as possible?

Sarah: Yeah. It's such a rich and interesting conversation. And, you know, I've talked about this in the past that You also then need to bring in the personality element when you're thinking about the individuals that you're working with, because it's always a combination of all of those things when you're working across cultures. That it's not just, and also stereotypes, we need to avoid stereotyping that everybody from Albania or Ireland or wherever you happen to be from is a certain kind of way because there's all generational, all kinds of shifts within that as well. Jola, I'm going to ask you to close. Um, by, uh, tell me your book recommendation for everybody listening, please.

Confidence. It was written in: 2017

But why do I feel it's special? It's because if you ever. path like fear or discomfort was holding you back, like in public speaking, for example, of networking, this book can help. And it's full of strategies for tackling those challenges in a simple language without having you feel overwhelmed. And we were discussing a bit just before what you were saying is like, there is a lot of layers when we talk about intercultural management to the point that people may say, you know, how that I'm going to get this wrong anyways, because I may be mistaken by their personality or by the specific regional differences or, you know, by specific values or the different generation that I'm talking about.

So, it's just so complex. I'm not going to even try. And that's not the attitude. We're trying to have people be mindful of these things. And I feel the book, uh, from, from Andy Malinsky is, is reading in a way that makes it simple to try to navigate. It's not a perfect recipe because we know there's no such thing, but it's the practicality of it that I, I really like.

And it makes you feel a little bit more confident about going out there and trying these things.

Sarah: No, I love that. Um, I love that it's practical, sounds practical, and also, as you say, sometimes our fear of being uncomfortable or of having to apologize or offending somebody, um, because we live in a world where there's a lot of cancel culture, um, stops us just connecting with people, which is really kind of sad, um, because it is worth it.

Gradiola: Definitely, yes. And if I were to just recommend something to everyone is just do a little bit of research and then be open when you talk to people about it. Most of the people are very welcoming in that sense, just say, I'm sorry if I, um, just help me understand. And if I say something, I don't mean it.

If it's coming across wrong, this is how I mean it and just help me understand or help me learn, help me better. And it goes a long way about learning a lot more than a lot of books that we're going to do, to be recommending here. So be genuine, be open and ask questions.

Sarah: That is a brilliant piece of advice to finish with. Gradiola, thank you so much. And I hope to see you soon.

Gradiola: Thank you very much, Sarah. It's been an absolute pleasure.

Sarah: Thank you.