Multilingualism - with Flor Bretón-García

Flor – Transcript

Sarah: Hi everybody, welcome to this week's episode of Athrú Communications Podcast, where we look at ways in which we can improve how we communicate across cultures. I am so pleased that my guest today is Flor Breton Garcia. Flor is an inclusion consultant. An educator, an intercultural trainer, and also on occasion, a Spanish language teacher as well.

So, it's one entrepreneur, she is a lawyer by training, a passionate volunteer and advocate, and someone with whom I once job shared. for two years. So that speaks to her qualifications and patience and understanding. I think it has to be said. Flor, it's so good to have you here. Thank you.

Flor: Thank you, Sarah, for having me here. And I'm so happy to be spending this time with you.

Sarah: Thank you. And one of the many reasons that I wanted to have Flor on the podcast was to talk about the challenges that come up when we are talking across lines of linguistic difference, language differences. So, Flor, you were born in Venezuela.

Flor: Yes. Correct.

Sarah: You've lived in several countries, including the US and Germany. Yes. You are fluent in at least three languages. That's correct. So English, Spanish, and German. And I think there are smatterings of other languages that every now and again, I will realize that you've said something in French or Portuguese, or just something else she's picked up. I also like to say that she's quite fluent in speaking Serra, which is another whole language. But Flor, I wanted to talk to you a little bit about when we're working in situations that are multilingual, whether that's in an organisation, or an individual team, or even in a community.

What are some of let's start with the joys of having a multilingual team or group of people. What are some of the positives of that?

Flor: Sarah, there are so many joys that I found, and I've been reflecting on this for the latest, the last two years, no? Because I work, part of my work is to, I would say, hang out or to brainstorm and had that, thought partnership with people that speak different languages. So, I experienced this on a daily basis. And it's something that makes me extremely proud and happy because this is, it brings me joy to see. and to understand the level of effort that another person has put into learning a second or third language or a fourth language in many cases.

So is it to me someone that is speaking, for example, to me in Spanish and Spanish is not their first language, but they are trying to communicate with me in what I consider the language of my heart. That requires an effort, not an effort of that person, not just from the point of learning the language, but also the person trying to connect with me.

So, effort. I also find it quite interesting and joyful to hear the different accents in the room. Accents tell a story. I always say that, for many years I was, and this is, this could be another whole podcast, another time, but for many years, and you know this, I was quite ashamed of my accent. I have a strong accent in English and in German, even more.

And in the last. six, five years, I have become in love. I have embraced it because I noticed that the accent tells a story. So, the same for those people that I connect with when we have a diversity of languages in a room, that's what it means. It means I see effort. I see admiration for the struggles. That it requires to learn another language and also to get out of our heads and be willing to speak it out loud, even though acknowledging our accents, and then the beauty of the accents that tell me that each one of those individuals have a story.

Sarah: Thank you. And I think we need to talk about the challenges then of working in teams, organizations, where you have multilingual teams or individuals. And so what are the kind of things that we might see as challenges then?

Flor: Sarah, I think that sometimes we forget when a colleague, when a friend is speaking in their second. Or third language when the way we interact and the materials that we're using to connect either for work or volunteering assignments is in a language different than the one that we grew up with the one that it was part of our education, especially in younger years, we forget that in the urgency of the matter in the busyness of the day.

And then we tend to maybe speak faster. then we will do it. Maybe use expressions that the other person wouldn't understand. I don't know, even our gestures, when you are able to see someone and that person is speaking in, not in their first language, but they're using their hands to still connect that to the heart.

It's something that we need to be aware and that we miss. So, I will say that is sometimes we. forget, and I don't say it in a, with a bad intention, but it can be challenging for the other person. I have to myself, sometimes in the middle of a conversation where I'm surrounded by English native speakers and they might speak faster than I will wish because, if I'm tired or if it's late in the day.

It's harder for me, but I don't think they do it in a bad way. It's just a matter of, we forget. We forget because we got used to having a team that is able to understand and speak in a certain, yeah, common language.

Sarah: And essentially you talked about the hand gestures there, because one of the things that I have had to learn is that it isn't just a matter of the language. So sometimes there isn't a direct translation for a concept or an idea from one language to the other. And as you say, there can be kind of cultural cues around language. And so, I'm curious to know more about that in terms of things that we might be missing if we're not used to working in this multi or not being intentional about the work in a multilingual situation.

Flor: Yeah. The gestures for me are a powerful language Sarah, and I think that coming from a culture and a communication style that requires a lot of hand gestures, you see me when I'm presenting and moving my hands, when I'm in a conversation, I'm doing that. So, I try to express not just through my words, but also with the hands.

And sometimes what I think that I see in myself and other individuals who are speaking in their second or third language is that the mouth is speaking in the common language. Like right now you and I are speaking in English, but my hands are speaking my language, because I'm expressing all these things with a lot of intensity in the way that I would do it in Spanish in Venezuela.

Is that too, no? If you see it, it's joyful because when you see someone that speaks and their gestures are different, you learn, if you're open to learn. It can also be a challenge if you find that distractful or if you don't understand. Why is this person moving their hands so much? An example of the hands.

Is she upset? Is she way too passionate and hot headed and not ready for this topic? The gestures can tell you a lot. It's just let's keep in mind that sometimes we are not ready or prepared or we don't have in our cultural background or in a communication style the way that others can use gestures to communicate.

Sarah: Yeah, and that's so true. And I think you and I have also talked about in the past, and if we were looking at this from a cultural intelligence framework, we'd also look at behaviour preferences, the direct and the indirect communication as well. So, I am typically quite direct, which means that it'll take me two minutes, and then you are sometimes maybe not so direct.

Flor: I know, I know. And, and Sarah, there is a learning in all this. So, it was hard at the beginning. I'm not saying just with you, we just told the audience that you and I spent two years working together for a volunteering, nonprofit organization in a volunteering role, but it's, it happens to be with those friends and colleagues have a communication style that is more direct than the one that I have. It has been challenging, but it has also been an opportunity for me to grow and understand that their direct way of communicating doesn't have to do with anything that I have done is most a tool, a medium to communicate and pass a message.

It requires a lot of understanding the cultural background of the other person. And yes, we don't want to, create or say general, statements or blanket statements or all that, but we need to pay attention to the cultural patterns, going back to the cultural intelligence part.

And you understand that some. Individuals who have a more direct communication style. The indirect is beautiful. I see it because it's the one that I was, brought up to and that I love, but I also understand that I can be confusing or maybe too long of the wait for someone that is used to receive the message and the feedback in a more direct way.

Sarah: Yeah, but it's just those layers and those types of differences that we need to be That's, the knowledge part of cultural intelligence. We need to know, and then we need to have our strategy and our actions to, hopefully find ways to adapt our behaviour so we can communicate and understand each other better.

One of the things that I have learned from you and others is, and you've referenced this, is like there's a cognitive cost in working in a second language because you're having to hear, understand, interpret, translate. Like I don't have to go through all those steps if I'm speaking. in an English context. Are there other ways, do you feel that when you speak in Spanish, you're exactly the same as when you speak to me in English?

Flor: No, I don't. Yeah. And that's why I always tell friends and clients that Spanish is the language of my heart. I always say that I love and get upset in Spanish. The one that I have is I believe that I'm way more passionate and able to speak with every fibre of my heart when I'm doing it in Spanish. For me, English has become a way of work, and I truly love and embrace this language, but I'm much more polite, Sarah, in English than I am in Spanish, so that I need to tell you. It is not, and I have learned to make some jokes, and I understand certain things but if you Want to experience, the side of Flor that is extremely loving, but also gets really upset. You will need to experience it in Spanish.

Sarah: Just like to take the loving part, if that's okay. I'd like not to meet upset Flor. And also want to acknowledge that every language is it's different and there are cultural patterns and then also individuals then bring different ways of communicating in terms of personal preferences and so on. And so, there's no, as you say, there's no kind of blanket statement, but are, I'm conscious, maybe some people listening might be communicators.

Are there very practical things, if you're working multilingually, that people can do to make it easier for everybody to come to the table and be able to have a great conversation?

Flor: Yes, I will say, Sarah, the first part is to understand the cultural context of the other person, to be aware, awareness will be, let me understand.

I'm sitting in a room, and we start out with floor and with any of the other colleagues and friends that you have that you and I have Sarah and understand where the space song is coming from. Is this their second or third language, and they start acknowledging their communication style.

So, I think awareness is the first point. For me, and something that I always recommend, not just at work, but even to my children who are exposed to different languages as well, and to people with different languages as well, is empathy. Again, that empathy will bring you to the admiration of the efforts.

That person that is speaking in another language has gone through a series of steps. And has shown a strength and discipline to be able to speak the language now in this way, so awareness, empathy, and also to listen more. Let's stop. Let's not assume that the person is going to communicate something in the same way that I'm going to do.

Let me stop and listen to the message that you're communicating because like we said, with the gestures and the ways I express myself in a second language might be. It might be there something to this be discovered, you might assume since I am speaking in English that I'm going to communicate.

in the same ways that you do, but there might be other nuances and layers to be unpacked when I'm speaking in my second language. It's like I might have, I might bring ideas in Spanish, using Spanish as an example, that I want to translate and bring literally to the English language that might not work out, but If I'm listening and I'm paying attention to what Flor is saying, am I saying and ask, "Hey, do you, are you literally translating? What does that mean?" Don't be afraid to ask questions. That will be the other one. If you didn't understand something, because that is sometimes you use expressions that I don't understand. And I ask you,

Sarah: This happens quite a lot.

Flor: So is that, awareness, empathy, the empathy tells, brings you to the admiration.And finally listen to the other people in the room. And that listening will bring you to the point of asking.

Sarah: And I think one thing that you have taught me as well is because I'm not gifted like I speak a little bit of a couple of languages. I speak a little bit of Norwegian, I speak a little bit of French, but I don't, I would never say that I was multilingual.

I'm not, to my great shame, it has to be said. But. I think it's important to acknowledge that I, particularly if English is the dominant language, that I haven't made the effort to learn your language. And to start with, I'm sorry I don't speak French, we're going to have to have this conversation in English, or Albanian, or Spanish, or German, or whatever the language happens to be.

And that we have to have this conversation, or we have to do this documentation in English. So, I think acknowledging that, not the expectation that your English should be better, but I should have made some effort to learn this, I think is also a good place to begin. I think you're a work in DEI, and I wanted to just talk briefly about one of the things that I sometimes hear is, “Oh, but English is the language of the business.”

Or Spanish is the language of the business and I want to just ask you what your reflections are on that sort of assumption then that everybody should just have fabulous English.

Flor: It is an assumption that we see more often than not and the more we do this DEI work, Sarah, and especially with organizations global organizations, organizations that have presence in different areas of the world.

We realize that not everyone has been educated or taught to have English as one of their main goals growing up. It wasn't for me in Venezuela. I didn't have English in at school, so I never saw it as a this is the goal. I learned that when I moved to United States and I learned it because like you said, Sarah, I was coming to this country, and I wanted to be part of it, and I knew that I needed to learn their language.

So the assumption that English or Spanish or any language is the business language and we all need to learn it and we all need to know it for me shows. certain lack of understanding that not everyone has the same goals or grew up with the same ideas of what a common language is. And that, that's why I think that is, is extremely valuable.

And we see it in this work more and more. I have the pleasure to work with great organizations where people, leaders. are creating from their trainings to their handbooks, to everything in the language of the places where they have presence, where they have offices, because they understand, not everyone speaks English.

Not everyone, for example, if English is the common language of that company, for example no, everyone speaks it. No, everyone speaks it in the same level. And when we are talking about matters that are related to DEI, like I said, matters of the heart. And believes it is extremely important that we do it in the language of the hearts of those individuals.

So is that assumption I'm telling you is something that is more often than not that we encounter it. But we need to understand that different cultural backgrounds are gonna dictate that. And for that we need to be aware of. We need. And I think that's why we certainly in the communication side, and you and I have been in situations where we've talked about this many times working with global audiences, is that we don't talk about translation anymore, we talk about transcreation, because you can't do it word for word, because the idea, the spirit, the heart sometimes of the idea needs to be said very differently to have the same impact because the language is don't work the same way as they do.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Sarah. And this is one of the things that, and I'm glad that you mentioned it. That's one of the things that I encountered the most when people ask me to translate. It's like when we're translating a mission statement or values or a vision of success for a company, it's not translation is that transcreation is how do I convey the message of the text that has been written originally in French or English or Mandarin to the language that, that I want, but for that, it's not just a translation of word to words, I have to bring the spirit of what was originally written to that second piece. And that second piece and that spirit has to have much more, communicate much more than just words.

It has to communicate feelings, so, yeah.

Sarah: And that's why I suppose we can't really separate the language conversation from the cultural conversation, because they're so inextricably connected and entwined. Flor, thank you very much. I'm asking all my guests this season to recommend a book or a podcast or a video or a resource that would help people, um, build their knowledge and understanding of working and communicating across culture and differences. Would you like to share your recommendation?

Flor: Absolutely, Sarah. So, you know that I'm all about understanding cultural patterns. We need to be extremely careful about thinking that everyone that is part of a culture behaves or communicates the same way. However, if we are in this beginner stage of the trying to understand culture, so then we can go to the communication part.

I would recommend the Culture Map by Eric Meyer. I know many of us might think that this is either just something that could come as very generic, but my recommendation, Sarah, is to look at the book as a baseline for what's coming next. This will help people to start understanding the cultural patterns.

It is a perfect place to start, and it also includes a couple of chapters that are related to communication. And the other books I will listen; we can have them listed in the notes. That's something that we can also do for different levels.

Sarah: Perfect. And then we're going to put together a list of everything that every guest recommends, and so people can go to the website, my website, and download the complete list for every episode and that should keep them reading and watching and listening for some time. Lore, thank you. A delight and a pleasure as always. I very much appreciate your wisdom and the fact that you did it all in your second language. Thank you.

Flor: Thank you so much, Sarah. It was a pleasure. Thanks.

Sarah: Thank you.