Polarisation - with Hanlie van Wyk

Polarisation - with Hanlie van Wyk

Sarah: Hi everyone, welcome to this episode of Athrú Communications Podcast with me, Sarah Black. This podcast is all about conversations that help us explore ways that we can transform how we communicate across cultures. I am very excited to welcome Hanlie Van Wyk today, who is a social scientist, cultural intelligence consultant, Organizational Cultural Analyst and a Hate Crime Scholar. She's originally from South Africa, she has worked all over the world and is currently based in Chicago where she works for the Global DEI Consultancy, the Kaleidoscope Group, as a Global Cultural Consultant. She's also in demand as a speaker at conferences around the world, particularly as she completes her PhD in Hate Crime Prevention.

She's also written a book on change, and I'm delighted because she's also a friend and a colleague and a great co-conspirator on how we're going to change the world. Hanlie, welcome.

Hanlie: Thank you. Hello everybody.

Sarah: So good to have you here. A fascinating career, a fascinating list of titles and experience and expertise, but I'm curious to know kind of what's led you to this point in your life and career.

How did you get here?

he transition made during the: 1994

showing up in a leadership way that, you know, I had just never seen before because up to that point it was highly autocratic. And so, his leadership style was so inclusive and clear in its intent. to bring people together to, you know, to cohese a nation that was so fractured at that time. And it was a tricky, tricky time, but that showed me that if you can do it for a country and you can lead people in that way, you can do it for companies.

And so that kind of started my whole journey, first in change, like, you know, the amazing way of how do you change people? How do you change their minds? How do you change their behaviours? You know, what is the research behind that? And then over time moved it into the DEI space, which is this diversity, equity and inclusion space that we find ourselves in.

And then of course, in the cultural space, because all across the world, things might be a little bit different. And that's what we deal with. We deal with working across lines of difference.

Sarah: Yeah. Thank you. There's some threads in things that I've heard you say in the past, but in that answer, I heard you talk about leadership and about deep division. And I want to ask you about, it seems almost a silly question, but I just want to pull it out a little bit more around how important leadership is in driving change.

Hanlie: I think it's critical, especially when it comes to behaviour change. Um, and it's, um, it was never as clear to me as when I was doing the hate crime research to see how triggering leadership can be in going from people having or holding a prejudice to acting on it when they have permission from leaders in the way that they speak and lead. And that is a, in a highly obviously toxic space because that tip towards dehumanization, um, allows people to behave in ways that they, they may not otherwise have behaved in. And so, I think when it comes to organizations, it's really, really important that leadership.

Has a clear message, a clear stance, a clear perspective on this that they share so that people can follow because people will watch what you do. And it's like when with, you know, when you're kids, you know, you watch what, what adults do. You don't just do your own thing, or you don't listen to them. That's for sure.

And I think that's, that's partially true also in the workplace still today.

Sarah: Yeah. Fascinating, and one of the reasons that I wanted to invite you on to the podcast was to talk about working across division. And as you've already said, we have some things in common in our backgrounds. Those of you who don't know, I'm originally from Belfast in the North of Ireland and Hanlie's from South Africa.

And so, you know, we've worked in places where. It really is incredibly difficult to bring two sides together. Violence and sectarianism and terrorism and all of those things are very much part of a parcel of kind of the everyday in our histories. Um, and it does feel that the world is becoming increasingly polarized, not just in the extremes that we've experienced in our lifetimes, but there seems to be this growing sense of polarization around the world.

How do we begin? to have conversations in settings that as, as you've just said are toxic and are that kind of deeply be multi generation polarized or even just now explosively polarized.

Hanlie: Right. I mean, I think there are a few things. The first thing that's really important for me is, you know, check your intent because, you know, as a young person, um, I was very feisty and of course my intent was always to change people's minds, right?

Because I felt I was right, and I thought they were wrong and maybe that was true and maybe that wasn't. But that was the intent and so that comes across as very, um, clear about what you're trying to do. And people will feel that you're trying to make them wrong and that's just not a good way to, to communicate and engage.

So, if you're listening to understand, to like truly understand, even if you don't agree, just listen to understand or be clear about what your intent for engaging in that conversation is, I think is the first very important thing. I think it'll also, you know, you listen with more than your ears, you listen with your eyes.

And it's also taking the temperature of the situation or the room or, you know, the group that you're in, because I believe that sometimes you should just. step away. Not every engagement or every opportunity is there to have these conversations. So just that level of awareness I think is really important before you even step into that, that, that space.

Once you step in, many different things come into play.

Sarah: Yeah. Um, and as you get further into those conversations, if you can begin it from a place of, I don't want to say good or bad intent, but the intent to understand perhaps rather than to shift people, because that's not going to happen in a single conversation.

We're not living in Disney movies here. Um, but are there things that will tend to help those conversations have more positive outcomes? And I suppose I mean by that, not deteriorating, not entrenching people, not getting into name calling or worse, still violence.

Hanlie: It's like once you're in the conversation, then I think perspective taking and proximity and time matter. Because if you're hoping to engage in one conversation and that, be it, and that solves, you know, all the disagreements and everything that, you know, all the misalignments that you may have as, as two people or two groups, that's just not going to happen. So maybe rather see it as a series of conversations, and this is just the first one or the second one that you're having, and you're constantly looking for perspective and common ground.

Um, I recently read that apparently perspective giving, so someone giving a perspective, um, through a story is often more powerful and having people at least consider a different point of view rather than perspective taking, which is me trying to put myself into your shoes, which sometimes works and sometimes may not work as well.

So, it's not that it doesn't work, it just seems that the other one is a little bit more effective. And it's an interesting thing, there's a piece around proximity that I think is really important. If I think about the examples in which we grew up in, the separations were so definite that you never really had the opportunity to have a conversation, to see how someone else is living, or experiencing things, or, and I think that piece becomes really important as well.

So, make it your work to be proxemous to the other person or the other person's group, at least for a little while, so that you can also show that, that you spending the time trying to understand that perspective. And again, it doesn't mean that you have to agree, agree or disagree. You simply engaging in a very different way that is not fractious and looking to deepen those fractures, which is often what happens when we're trying to convince people to change their minds, right? Because we believe they're wrong.

Sarah: Absolutely. As we think about polarization, um, and you're deeply entrenched in this work now trying to finish your, your PhD on hate crime. Um, do you see signs for hope? Do you think that we're a species, you know, just hurtling down this polarization track?

Hanlie: You know, there's so many different perspectives on that. There's perspective that, you know, as human beings, we are built to collaborate and built to work together and, and that's how we succeed. And I, I believe that is true, but I believe it takes work, and to bring it back to leadership, I think, especially in situations where we are in countries or large societies, that leadership matters, um, to make sure that we're choosing that way and not choosing the other way, because I think both are possible, and I do see often when I'm dealing with people that people are hopeful, Because they're living in communities that don't necessarily want to show up in those very polarized ways.

Um, and that gives me hope that they are individuals that will always strive to bridge the gap, if you like. But I, I hope that they will not become overwhelmed by leadership that leads them in a different direction.

Sarah: Yeah. Or possibly, I suppose, I was thinking about leadership as well that won't step in, isn't necessarily part of perpetuating polarization, but equally goes, that's not my problem and doesn't step in to take a proactive position to try and to bring people together. Does that make sense?

Hanlie: Right. Yeah.

Sarah: You know, there's maybe a danger that we could have corporate leaders and social leaders that just go, well, we're not going to talk about that, which, you know, Northern Ireland has a long history of not talking about things, um, that, of trying to bring people together in a way, which I think is very challenging.

I'm conscious that there may be people listening to this who are either working in people and culture roles, organizational, um, leadership roles in terms of HR, those kinds of things, and also communications professionals, I hope are listening to this, um, it's very difficult to navigate this within organizations.

Um, as we maybe have, or people within our organisation who may hold very different and polarised views. Any practical tips, even if it's just here are things to do to not make it worse?

Hanlie: I think it's always searching for the, searching for the human being when you're working with someone that holds a diametrically opposed view to you, is to understand that they are fathers and mothers and sons and daughters and they have friends that think that they're right, and you have friends that think that you're right.

And when you're working in the space together, you know, find the common ground. Find the things that you can connect on, if it's fractious or if it's something that has a little bit of heat in it. And, and create these spaces in which these conversations of trying to understand each other and see each other's perspectives can grow and I think that sort of leads that psychological safety space where we can create that in the workplace where we can we can be in a group and have diametrically opposed views and you know we have a group at the kaleidoscope group a global group that holds diametrically opposed views on numerous things right whether it's religion whether it's politics whether it's It doesn't really matter and yet we can work together very effectively because we know and honour each other and I'm not trying to engage in a conversation to change each other's minds around something.

And when something does come up that, that is creating an issue in the workplace, that is when you can sit down and say, "Hey, you know, you have this perspective. I have this perspective. This is getting in our way of working together in a in a way that's, you know, fun and productive. How do we deal with this? How do we, how do we get past this? How do we, how do we sit down now and resolve that so that we can continue to work together? "

Sarah: Yeah, I think that point about meeting people where they are. So, whatever their perspective is, just go, I don't have to agree with it. I just have to let you hold that and try and understand why you hold it and maybe that'll shift something for me. Maybe it'll shift something for you in having to explain it to me. You know, it's, it's that kind of genuine meeting.

Hanlie: And I'll, I'll make another point in that you have to be able to take as well the fact that someone else might believe exactly the same about you, that you have a wrong point of view and that can sometimes be very hard to do.

Sarah: Yeah.

Hanlie: So also, be ready to receive feedback in that way where you have to regulate your own emotional state and, and be ready to just listen to someone who is, you know, is intent on having an engagement with you. either to resolve something or maybe they are trying to convince you differently or what, you know, whatever their intent is, but learn to, to manage yourself as well, because that's sometimes also where you need to learn to step away because not every engagement needs to happen, right? You must be able to take it if you're going to dish it out.

Sarah: Yes. And for everybody on social media, that would be really helpful. Um, we don't all have to comment on every single thing. I think that's, um, I've been reading some interesting stuff now about recently about how we manage these kind of very fractious that become very inflamed conversations on social media and one of it is just walk away.

Don't have to get involved in every single thing. Hanlie, thank you so much wisdom in this conversation with you. I'm asking everybody this year to recommend book, video, resource, podcast. So do you want to share your picks? You're recommending, there are probably many. I feel bad that I'm limiting you to like one or two.

Hanlie: Yeah, it's always a hard thing, right, to just, um, only one.

Sarah: You can cheat, I'll let you have two.

Hanlie: Thank you, thank you. The one that really touched me recently was a book by Madeline Albright called Fascism, A Warning. And I really love the way that she wrote about it so that we can be aware of, you know, how these shifts happen and how sometimes they can be So quiet in the background, even though there's a lot of noise, these shifts are happening and what to watch out for so that we don't contribute to it being worse.

And then the other one was A World in Three Cultures, which I think is a great book to look into. And that's by Miguel Basanez. I hope I'm saying that right.

Sarah: I'm adding those to my list. And we were talking just before we came on air that we're both, I've just finished Super Communicators. It's by Charles Dregg, I'll check that I've pronounced that right and I've got it right. I think you're listening to it at the moment. And there are some things in that book that touch on the themes that we've been sharing today or discussing today around how do we have difficult conversations; how do we connect with people in a way that's meaningful and respectful when we are widely, widely apart on certain, um, potentially quite inflammatory issues.

Thank you. Very much, so much more that we could talk about. We could be here for days, weeks, possibly discussing this. Um, and I'm grateful that I get the opportunity to continue the conversations with you. We will share all the ways that you can connect with Hanlie in the show notes, and you can check out her book and follow the work that she is doing on hate crimes around the world. Hanlie, thank you.

Hanlie: Thank you so much.