Exploring Cultural Intelligence - with Trisha Carter

Exploring Cultural Intelligence - with Trisha Carter

Sarah: Hi everybody. Welcome to another episode of Athrú Communications Podcast. I'm Sarah Black, your host, and we're going to be taking another episode to explore how we can transform how we communicate across cultures. I am up very early on a Monday morning, but I'm very excited, because I am here with Trisha Carter, who is probably the biggest reason that I know about cultural intelligence and a huge influence on my own cultural intelligence journey.

Tricia is a organizational psychologist. I've also worked with her in her capacity as a DEI consultant. She's also a coach and she is a podcaster. She is the host of The Shift, which explores how we think about our metacognition and the ways in which we change our thinking and think about our thinking.

So I'm delighted that Tricia is here with us. Good morning, Tricia. Good afternoon, Tricia. Good afternoon, good morning

Trisha: Sarah. It's lovely to be here. Thank you for asking me.

Sarah: And I didn't explain, but Tricia is currently in Sydney, but is originally from New Zealand and previously lived in China for how many years, Tricia?

Trisha: Uh, China for three years. So we have volunteered together, we have worked together and we continue to work together. We've been a number of global teams together, which adds another spice to life. Absolutely. Another layer to the ways in which we have worked across difference together.

Sarah: There's lots and lots of things, Trisha, that I could talk to you about for hours, so I'm going to try and contain myself.

But I wanted to ask you, there's a lovely thing you say at the start of your podcast where you talk about working across difference. And I find also that when we talk about transforming how we work, communicate across cultures, people often go in their heads to communicating across different languages, across different national or regional cultures, but I love that you talk about difference and I wanted to ask you to explain more about how you think cultural intelligence helps us walk across different kinds of difference.

Trisha: Yeah. And even when we're talking about across national differences, people never. Bit neatly into those buckets and so not all Australians communicate in the same way. Not all New Zealanders, whatever nationality you might want to take. Because there are always so many shades of difference within a country, within a culture.

And the other differences that come to light are also, you know, so wonderful. So many amazing differences. Whether, I think the first one that comes to mind is gender. And often gender has an impact on how we relate. And it can have an impact on how we communicate as well. It influences how we see ourselves and how we see others.

And so there can always be something in the back of our heads that might be holding us back from people or might be creating a barrier or a block. And so those are always things that's good to be aware of so that we can overcome that and just relate to people as people. I think age can be another one as well and you and I have talked about age quite often as the oldest person in the room, you know, I'm, I'm, I'd like to say I'm bringing the wisdom, but that doesn't always happen.

So, you know, sometimes age can be a factor in terms of how we reach out to other people or, you know, become invisible as people often speak about as they get older. And then there are the ways that different generations might communicate both across the modes of communication, but also the styles.

There's a bit of a thing here in Australia last week about a politician who used Generation Alpha's language in a speech. And she might have thought it was a bit cool, but I'm not too sure how many Gen Alphas thought it was that cool. I mean, you know. It's quite snazzy to have words that some people don't understand because you're talking in the language of the young people and I don't know if the young people want other people using their language when they speak to them or whether they just want to keep it for themselves but that's another, you know, sort of aspect to take into consideration but recognizing that that is a line of difference.

And that people from different generations relate differently. And so how can we show up in ways where we're not being biased in one way or another, but we are open and we are seeking to build relationships. And then, you know, you and I have also spoken in the past about neurodivergence and how different ways of thinking can also mean that we show up.

Differently, and therefore some people will be open to us and some people might not be open to us. And so again, it's unpacking what might be the barriers and the blocks that we create in our own minds. And how can we bridge those to build good relationships with people? And I think your listeners are probably going, oh yeah, and there's also this difference and that difference, parents, non parents, you know, um, you know, all the many different shades of being, um, that we are, that we bring to, to any discussion, whether it's a workplace or a team or whatever.

And so just being able to recognize and value and enjoy and appreciate that difference is really important, I think.

Sarah: Yeah, fascinating. And I'm struck by what you said there about identifying the barriers and the blockers. which I think takes quite a lot of deep reflection work and thinking. And I know that one of your specialisms is helping us think about our thinking.

Yes. Um, and so I wanted to ask you to explain sort of EQ model for anybody who's new to this and is thinking, what, what do they mean by metacognition when I mentioned it earlier in this conversation? So I'd love you to explain that and the value of that.

Trisha: And so it's the component of cultural intelligence, which is CQ strategy, and it is cultural metacognition, which is how we think about ourselves from a cultural perspective.

And the problem with unpacking that or recognizing that is that we don't usually think about it at all. So we are embedded within our culture. I was just using the definition, um, I think it's Hofstetter who said that it's the cultural programming of our minds. And, you know, when parents are raising children, they raise them to fit in with the society that they're living in.

And, you know, that's usually their culture. So they raise their children to see and behave in their own culture in a way that's acceptable. So they'll tell them, do this, don't do that. This is the way you should be thinking. This is what's really important. And then, Years later down the track they encounter another culture and they might realize, hopefully, that other cultures think quite differently.

And so unpacking what we have been programmed to believe, they become our cultural values. That's really important. So I was programmed to be on time. I was programmed that if you're not on time, you are disrespecting someone or you are not being good at what you're doing, you know, at a good person. And so, you know, if we were going to be late going out somewhere with my dad, he'd be sitting in the driveway revving the car engine as a signal that it was time to hurry up and get into the car.

And so we would, we would never want to be late or dad would be upset with us. So in some cultures. People aren't raised like that and so they just don't have that embedded within their programming. And so when they move, if they come to a culture like one where my dad was, then They will perhaps not be as aware of how insulting it might be, how negatively they might be perceived if they're not spot on time for something.

So unpacking what we've been brought up with is really important so that we can recognize it just as something that we've been brought up with. Not a right and wrong, not respecting or disrespecting, but something that shows up in that culture in that way. And then unpacking what might be a block if somebody behaves differently towards me, uh, and that's certainly, um, you know, something that I've worked with people, especially as they have encountered other cultures, to help them overcome that block that they might have about other people being late, for example.

Sarah: Yeah.

Trisha: That's just time. But we have that same programming about so many things about the way we communicate about the way we lead about the way we relate to other people with respect or not with respect. And so so many different things that we just don't even think of. We just assume that they are. the way that everyone thinks, but they aren't. And so unpacking those and recognizing them is really important.

Sarah: I think there's, there's two really important things for me listening to that, one of which is that I think there's quite often a misconception that when we talk about cultural intelligence it's actually about understanding other cultures and it's not, it actually starts with yourself.

Trisha: Yes.

Sarah: And unpacking what you believe and what you think and how you behave and what your preferences are. Um, and I think the other thing is. Um, and I've learned a lot about this from you is that it's not about holding right and wrong. It's about just when that's different and this is how I feel about that difference and then processing that.

Trisha: Yeah.

Sarah: Um, and that can be a really difficult thing to sit with if the norms of your professional function, your cultural upbringing, all the things. Um, any, any tips or advice for anybody who, for whom that is a revelation or that idea of trying to rise above and not, and just take different perspectives and say, okay, I'm, I'm trying to see how they see the world, that idea of perspective taking.

Trisha: I think that one of the most wonderful things you can do is have conversations with other people who see things differently, and you and I have had those sorts of conversations. Other friends that we both share. We've had those conversations and it might be before you're doing something. So before you're going to be working together, perhaps before you're going to facilitate together or before you're going to be planning a session on something together, or as you come together to work, you know, as we did all those years ago on that board that we were working together.

And so talking to somebody else and when they talk about their belief and you already know and care and respect that person and then you see that they think so differently, then you just go, Oh, wow, that's really interesting because you don't label it because you know that person and so it's almost like you can see the behaviour Yeah.

Um, without judging because you know and appreciate and value that person. So I think that's probably my first tip would be to speak to other people who might think differently to you and see where they're coming from and really understand that it's just something different. And then there might be an element where there might be something that you just hold on to and you say for me, this one is something that I really do have to hold.

Um, and there was a few years ago I was guest lecturing at a university and a woman, a young woman who had had her, uh, study abroad, I don't know if they call it that at this university, but that's what they tend to call it globally. So she'd had a study abroad period and she'd gone to a culture that was a very patriarchal culture and she said that she found it very difficult as a woman in this culture.

And she couldn't accept that it was the right way to operate because her opinion was discounted. And she said she could see that, and it wasn't so much for her, but it was also that she could see that other women were with her and were having their brilliance ignored. Um, and so we spoke about the concept of core and flex, that there are some aspects that sit right at the core of our hearts and maybe with those we can't be flexible on.

And so for that person, that culture, that difference might be one that she couldn't work with, that it would be, you know, one where there would be quite a lot of stress in trying to adapt and so forth. Because she needed to keep silent and let the men speak, that might be something that she just couldn't do.

Uh, so, recognizing if there is something that is really vital to you to say, maybe this is core and I need to hold it. Um, but again, I think what happens is that sometimes, especially when we begin on our journeys with difference, we might have a rather big core. And then as we get to know people and we go, well, actually, maybe that's not so important for me, you know, maybe people don't always have to speak to me directly.

Maybe that I thought that was core, but maybe I can understand when people speak indirectly and maybe, maybe I can learn to speak, you know, so there can be some movement in what is core and what is flex as well. And so it may be that as we grow in our experience. We can have a little bit more flexibility around that core.

But I think it's helpful for people to go, at least as they're learning, that it's okay to hold some things and to go, well this is really difficult for me and I can't adapt on this aspect. This might be something that I hold key to who I am. Because people need to be who they are as well. So we don't want to be just a chameleon that changes depending on who we're around. We also want to hold on to some of who we are and what makes us special. And so knowing that one aspect is something that I will always be is, is helpful for us. Yeah. But again, it's really good to be able to talk about these things with other people.

Sarah: Yes. And so from, I'll use personal example for me, it's really important that people are honest with me, but it took me a long time to navigate the difference between direct feedback and direct communication.

Trisha: Right.

Sarah: And people who are giving me indirect communication and direct feedback, which I have to work harder to interpret perhaps. Yep, yep, yep. That doesn't mean they're not being more or less honest with me, it's just that I have to, you know, it's just different.

Trisha: Yes.

Sarah: It's, it's just different. There's a, uh, Julia Middleton's got a great TEDx talk on core and flex. And I happened to watch it again last week, so I'll pop it in the show notes because I think Thank you, that's a good one. Her examples are also, um, worth looking at. And I think that idea of holding onto your sense of self whilst being able to see I can see why this person behaves like this or thinks like this and it's okay, it's just different.

Um, or I can see why they're reacting or responding like that based on what I know about their differences, their cultural values, how we see the world differently.

Trisha: Yeah.

Sarah: Um, I think for me one of the things, and I think that's also where we set some healthy boundaries perhaps as well. Like, you know, knowing, knowing your upbringing or your situation doesn't necessarily excuse you being unpleasant to me or treating me with disrespect.

It's, it's setting those kind of healthy boundaries because I don't want people to listen to this and go, well, they're just basically saying it's all okay for us to behave however we like because we're all different. Yeah. There's some things that aren't okay, folks. Um, so also knowing what your boundaries are and what you are willing to tolerate in your social world or your cultural world, I think is important.

I think one of the things that's been emerging for me as I've been recording this series is the importance of listening. And I'm curious to know about how important you think that is, both listening to yourself and then listening to other people.

Trisha: Yeah, no, that's crucial. In my podcast, I've got a little, I think it's sort of a teaser episode where I talk about an experience that I had when I was listening to somebody speak about their belief.

And I could hear what they were saying and appreciated how differently they thought to what I thought. And then I was, as I was listening to them, I sort of suddenly could hear how I must sound to them as well. And I realized that I must sound incredibly selfish with the things that I was saying. And so it is that ability to listen to somebody and, and also to hear then your own response.

And maybe how it might sound to that person, which is, which sounds convoluted. But I think once you get used to playing like that with your thoughts and with how other people are, then it becomes a very helpful process to be able to go through.

Sarah: I can hear a lot of people now saying, maybe I'm wrong, forgive me if I'm wrong, audience um, I haven't got time to think about those things. What's your response to that?

Trisha: I think sometimes, sometimes. If we allow ourselves to hear our own thoughts, we will save ourselves a lot of time and mistakes. So we might be too busy. Um, I was just working with somebody earlier today who's very busy and he was talking about building relationships and we were talking about how they might be easier built in a slightly different way.

And so he was very busy and there are things he can do that would make his business more effective. So, yeah, I appreciate the busyness, I appreciate the demands of work that is today, and I also think we need those moments. Of listening to ourselves and to others because otherwise we don't stand a chance of being able to build bridges between people.

Sarah: And I think your point about effectiveness is really important when we think about the time we waste, not waste, the time we spend. Yes. On sorting out miscommunication or misunderstandings, things that aren't effective or the stress of a relationship where there's just a lot of friction. Yeah. Hit that, hitting the pause button and going, wait, what's actually going on here?

Trisha: Yeah.

Sarah: Thinking, um, is really helpful. Trisha, thank you. I'm going to ask before you finish. First of all, we are going to link to Trisha's podcast in the show notes because it's excellent and there's a lot of great conversations around how we shift our thinking and how that's people sharing moments in which that's happened.

Trisha: Including with Sarah Black. including with me.

Sarah: Um, there are better episodes folks. Um, but I'm asking everybody to recommend a book that would help listeners build their cultural intelligence. We've had some books, books, podcasts, vlogs, videos, whatever. Um, what would you like to recommend, Tricia?

was so many years ago, was it: 2010

I've got the old one and I've bought the new one as well. Leading with cultural intelligence, the real secret to success by David Livermore. So that would be my recommendation.

Sarah: Brilliant. I forgot to mention that Trisha is actually the highest sort of accolade or level. Certification is to be a CQ fellow and Tricia was one of the first ever CQ fellows and continues that work and her shift podcast is part of that.

Tricia, thank you. Always a great conversation when I get to talk to you. Very much appreciate it.

Trisha: Thank you so much for having me, Sarah.

Sarah: Thank you.